Okay, here's where I go off on a religious rant...

[arib]

Very rare for me, I know, but I just feel like I need to get this off my chest. It won't necessarily be too well written, but I'll clarifly stuff if people have questions.

Jews who don't celebrate Tisha b'Av (today's fast, comemorating the destruction of the Temples in jerusalem, as well as other tragedies) because they see no point in mourning the destruction of the Beit HaMikdash (the Temple, located in Jerusalem, where the Western Wall and Dome of the Rock are now) really piss me off.

Not annoy, anger.

The Temple was once central to religious observance as Jews, and, while we definitely observe differently now, is still central to our identity as Jews.

"The Temple Mount isn't just the Temple Mount, the Beit HaMikdash isn't just the Beit HaMikdash, it's an idea, something that lives inside of us." (From the movie Time of Favor)

Maybe it's just because I lived near the Western Wall, and saw (personally) how the Waqf is destroying what little archaeological evidence remains makes me realize that downplaying the significance of the location is only helping deligitimize our connection to it.

One of the pioneers of the Reform movement in Germany in the early 20th century (I appologize, I know I'm going to muff some of the details) was once asked why he didn't consider himself a Zionist, when many other Jews, of various stripes, were all crying out in support of a Jewish state. His response? "Berlin is my Jerusalem." I believe history provided an adequate rebuttal to his statement.

Jerusalem and the Temple are part of who we are. One can endlessly debate the way things are progressing there, and how they feel things should be done, but to completely disregard it entirely? That's just wrong.

Questions comments and debate will all be welcomed, appologies for any hurt feelings are offered if needed.

Now if you don't mind, I'm going to go rehydrate.

Comments

[gingicat]

It is not the commemoration of the destruction of the Temple that I object to. It's not the mourning. Though I don't fast or attend services on Tisha B'Av, I do think about the Temple and about rebuilding.

The reason I consciously decided not to fast on Tisha B'Av, about three years ago, was that all of the bad things that happened to the Jewish people are said to have occurred on that day. I find that statistically improbable and superstitious. When I go to synagogue I see people walking around in fear that it will happen again. And I see this attitude reflected more and more during the rest of the year... "The world is out to get the Jews. Even the people who are with us aren't with us. Trust No One."

I understand your feelings, and I am sorry to disappoint a friend by observing our mutual religion in a way that offends him. But I hope you will accept my reasons.

[arib.livejournal.com]

The reason I consciously decided not to fast on Tisha B'Av, about three years ago, was that all of the bad things that happened to the Jewish people are said to have occurred on that day. I find that statistically improbable and superstitious.

Nobody's said that all bad things that happen to Jews happen on the ninth of Av, but a lot of things did.

When I go to synagogue I see people walking around in fear that it will happen again. And I see this attitude reflected more and more during the rest of the year... "The world is out to get the Jews. Even the people who are with us aren't with us. Trust No One."

*shrug* World opinion hasn't always been very favorable towards Jews. Anti-semitic incidents in Europe are on the rise along with the suicide bombings in Israel. I'm not advocating mindless paranoia or anything, that would be counterproductive, just a guardedly cautious eye on world events.

I understand your feelings, and I am sorry to disappoint a friend by observing our mutual religion in a way that offends him. But I hope you will accept my reasons.

I'm not disappointed per se, or really offended, either. It's just something that we disagree about that I feel like voicing my opinion over, rather than letting things lie, as I usually do.

[cellio]

The Temple occupies a critical place in our history. I, too, am angered by what the Arabs have done (and are doing) to destroy what little remains. We should not forget our history.

However, I do not long for the rebuilding of the Temple. I think that would actually do harm to our people, and Am Yisrael is more important. If we can actually reconcile our differences and be one nation again, I think that God won't ask us to resume the Temple rituals.

Tisha b'Av is a solemn day, and should not be "just another day", but I cannot bring myself to mourn. I think that the destruction of the Temple forced us to move in directions that (IMO) God wanted us to move in, just as going into slavery in Egypt eventually led to the revelation. Yes, our people's actions contributed to the destruction of the Temple and that is a bad thing, but I think the Temple would have been taken away at some point anyway. Better that we focus on improving ourselves so that our current methods of worship aren't taken away prematurely, than to long for something we couldn't go back to anyway.

[cellio]

Oh, and failure to mourn != disregarding Jerusalem entirely.

[arib.livejournal.com]

However, I do not long for the rebuilding of the Temple. I think that would actually do harm to our people, and Am Yisrael is more important. If we can actually reconcile our differences and be one nation again, I think that God won't ask us to resume the Temple rituals.

IMO, and from things I've read, the latter would bring about the former. Also, the third Temple won't have services similar to the first two. Sacrifices will no longer be a part of the regimen, and will be replaced by prayer. I don't have the actual sources for this in front of me, but I'll get them if you'd like.

I think that the destruction of the Temple forced us to move in directions that (IMO) God wanted us to move in, just as going into slavery in Egypt eventually led to the revelation.

Agreed, there's good mixed in with the bad.

Better that we focus on improving ourselves so that our current methods of worship aren't taken away prematurely, than to long for something we couldn't go back to anyway.

My previous comments addressed this, I think. Personally, I wouldn't want to go back to sacrifices either. According to some mefarshim, sacrifices were instituted because it was the only religious reference the Jews had post-exodus, non-sacrificial religious ceremonies apparently weren't very common in Egypt. Evidence in Genesis points to the Patriarchs praying as well as making sacrifices.

(If anyone reading this needs any extra explanation/translations, just ask. :-) )

[cellio]

This is an interesting discussion. Thank you.

IMO, and from things I've read, the latter [sacrifices] would bring about the former [unity].

I am skeptical that the path exists. Yes, sure, the mashiach may change things, but the mashiach will be a person, so he still has to contend with human nature (as well as halacha).

There are groups of Jews who believe radically different things about the third temple -- that it will come and bring with it a return to korbanot, that it will come but that korbanot will be replaced by other service, that it will not come, that it ought not to come... so if one group, the group that longs for rebuilding the temple and restoring korbanot, says to the others "we are doing this now", do you really think that will bring unity? I think it would bring division so strong that by comparison the current state of the people would look like one big happy family. After all, look at what happens when the rabbinate in Israel tries to impose its view of religious law on a secular country largely populated by Jews. The non-Orthodox majority have not, for the most part, just said "yes you're right about who can marry" or "yes of course you own the western wall and can kick us out" or whatever; they have opposed such rulings and found ways to resist. And that's just within Israel.

I'm not being combattive here, by the way -- just pesimistic. Yes, the mashiach will have to have incredible statesmanship skills to be able to unite us, but I think unity would have to come first and only then could a restoration of the temple be possible. And getting people to unify around a non-central position will be quite challenging.

Also, the third Temple won't have services similar to the first two. Sacrifices will no longer be a part of the regimen, and will be replaced by prayer. I don't have the actual sources for this in front of me, but I'll get them if you'd like.

I have heard Orthodox rabbis disagree on this. Is there really a source that pretty much everyone agrees on that says unambiguously that the third temple would not be accompanied by a return to korbanot? It's possible that the person I heard strenously arguing for a return to that practice in the time of the mashiach was in error, or -- more likely -- that I misunderstood him. (I wish I could remember who it was. It's been a few years and it was a visiting scholar, not someone local.)

I'd be curious to know the sources that support the no-korbanot view, if they're handy. Don't feel obligated to go to a lot of effort on my account, though, especially as I am probably unqualified to really evaluate them. (Certainly I am if they are not translated into English.)

I'm aware that the Rambam argued that we progressed from korbanot to prayer and will progress from prayer to philosophic contemplation, but as far as I know the Rambam isn't a source of halacha to most scholars.

[pocketnaomi.livejournal.com]

Even before the Second Temple was destroyed, the sacrifices existed but were becoming less and elss central to worship. It was possible then to have the formality od Temple sacrifice on the one hand and the daily routine of rabbinic practicality on the other. What makes you think it would change us much now? I do long for the rebuilding of the Temple; I think that we as a people are incomplete without it and always will be. And I think that, however little I may like it, certain sacrifices are mandatory in Torah if the Temple stands, whether or not we think they are a very good idea. But the number of explicitly required sacrifices is pretty small; if we did no more than has been directly commanded of us, they would be an accent note on a religious structure mostly built around the same things it was before.

In any case, at the moment there stands, either on or directly beside (depending on which archaeologists you talk to) the proper site for the Temple, a little cluster of buildings that we'd probably manage to start World War III by razing. I think this throws rebuilding, for the moment, into the category of things forbidden by pikkuach nefesh, and I think we've no choice either from a practical standpoint or a religious one but to let it alone.

[katanah.livejournal.com]

IMO, and from things I've read, the latter [sacrifices] would bring about the former [unity].

I am skeptical that the path exists.

Well, from what I learned last semester in the practical and research parts of Music & Prayer in Jewish Worship, it is certainly my impression that bringing Jews together to a mutually sacred ground for a communal activity (prayer, worship, whatever) would be a community-building experience and foster some of the unity we hope for. It's not a quick fix, I'm certain, but it is a hope

[cellio]

Bringing Jews together is a good thing. Bringing Jews together to resume Temple activity would prompt major fights between the "we want korbanot now!" crowd and the "blood is icky" crowd. You first have to establish who has the authority to make decisions about Temple practice, and that will get ugly.

Maybe I'm being overly pesimistic; I don't know.

As the comment above points out, though, it's likely to be a thought experiment and nothing more for the forseeable future. That said, I wonder how we would actually know that we're supposed to replace korbanot with prayer (or something else) vs going back to korbanot if we had the third temple.

[arib.livejournal.com]

IMO, and from things I've read, the latter [sacrifices] would bring about the former [unity].

Allow me to clarify, by latter, I meant rebuilding the Temple, not sacrifices. Personally, I don't think daily sacrifices will ultimately be needed.

There are groups of Jews who believe radically different things about the third temple -- that it will come and bring with it a return to korbanot, that it will come but that korbanot will be replaced by other service, that it will not come, that it ought not to come...

and it's impossible to know who's right, barring divine intervention. :-)

After all, look at what happens when the rabbinate in Israel tries to impose its view of religious law on a secular country largely populated by Jews. The non-Orthodox majority have not, for the most part, just said "yes you're right about who can marry" or "yes of course you own the western wall and can kick us out" or whatever; they have opposed such rulings and found ways to resist. And that's just within Israel.

I have my own opinions about how the non-Orthodox majority treats the Orthodox minority, and vice-versa, but that's another discussion for another time.

I have heard Orthodox rabbis disagree on this. Is there really a source that pretty much everyone agrees on that says unambiguously that the third temple would not be accompanied by a return to korbanot? It's possible that the person I heard strenously arguing for a return to that practice in the time of the mashiach was in error, or -- more likely -- that I misunderstood him. (I wish I could remember who it was. It's been a few years and it was a visiting scholar, not someone local.)

It's either Rambam or Ramban, I can't remember at the moment.

After thinking about it for a while, the only sacrifices I could personally see coming back, if any, are those that end up being used as food. Food sacrifices, like the korban Pesach, serve a purpose other than killing and incinerating an animal for a non-physical God, which strikes me as a little odd, anyway.

[cellio]

Allow me to clarify, by latter, I meant rebuilding the Temple, not sacrifices.

Aha. I apologize for my misreading.

I have my own opinions about how the non-Orthodox majority treats the Orthodox minority, and vice-versa, but that's another discussion for another time.

I did not mean to imply that the problem is unidirectional.

It's either Rambam or Ramban, I can't remember at the moment.

Rambam says (I think in Guide for the Perplexed, but I might be wrong about that) that prayer replaced korbanot and something else (some sort of philosophical contemplation -- I admit to still being perplexed :-) ) will replace prayer. But I had gotten the impression that a significant portion of the rabbinate considered Rambam to not be authoritative on this subject. Has anyone post-Rambam said, authoritatively, that korbanot will not return?

After thinking about it for a while, the only sacrifices I could personally see coming back, if any, are those that end up being used as food.

Isn't that most of them? Even the chatat turns into food and not pure ash, right? (And there would be a lot of these if the temple and korbanot were restored...)